Article Comment: Future stars of XC - the Colorado top ten girls
10/07/2014 11:32:12 AM
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I understand that this list is best cut off at the top ten. However, in this case it may have been more representative to cut it off at the top thirteen and include sophomores, Devon Peterson (Cherry Creek), Athena Khune (Pine Creek) and Lauren Offerman (Mountain View). All three of these girls are deserving and the real deal!
I understand that this list is best cut off at the top ten. However, in this case it may have been more representative to cut it off at the top thirteen and include sophomores, Devon Peterson (Cherry Creek), Athena Khune (Pine Creek) and Lauren Offerman (Mountain View). All three of these girls are deserving and the real deal!
10/07/2014 12:12:21 PM
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@Weekie Mark, you are absolutely right about the difficulties of doing a list like this. Add to that the difficulty of "balancing" the list between freshmen and sophomores. So, we do the best we can and realize we left off some very talented individuals. There will be an end-of-season list as well, so perhaps a few of those names you mention make that list. With the state meet figured into the end-of-season list, it's likely not to be quite as dominated by Liberty Bell performances as well.
@Weekie

Mark, you are absolutely right about the difficulties of doing a list like this. Add to that the difficulty of "balancing" the list between freshmen and sophomores. So, we do the best we can and realize we left off some very talented individuals.

There will be an end-of-season list as well, so perhaps a few of those names you mention make that list. With the state meet figured into the end-of-season list, it's likely not to be quite as dominated by Liberty Bell performances as well.
10/07/2014 2:56:55 PM
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I agree that Athena Kuhn should be mentioned, and wow…freshman Lilliana Hamilton of Air Academy isn't in here? Don't get me started on how skewed the Liberty Bell Meet is, that race is a joke for timing standards. It shouldn't be allowed for qualifications for any meet across the country.
I agree that Athena Kuhn should be mentioned, and wow…freshman Lilliana Hamilton of Air Academy isn't in here?

Don't get me started on how skewed the Liberty Bell Meet is, that race is a joke for timing standards. It shouldn't be allowed for qualifications for any meet across the country.
10/07/2014 9:42:42 PM
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Add the Pat Amato classic to the "joke" category as well relative to times. All that matters is Norris Penrose.
Add the Pat Amato classic to the "joke" category as well relative to times. All that matters is Norris Penrose.
10/07/2014 10:18:24 PM
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There is a lot of "joke" courses in the state but also it's at altitude, that counts for a lot. I will second all that matters is State! All list should be finalized from State results! Time to show up.....
There is a lot of "joke" courses in the state but also it's at altitude, that counts for a lot. I will second all that matters is State! All list should be finalized from State results! Time to show up.....
10/07/2014 10:49:32 PM
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@CoachGlen69 Again the topic of Liberty Bell and how it skews the "real" status of runners in Colorado. When will LB take a hint and change the course or reclassify the event as a road race. LB is not real cross country in a state that should be the pinnacle of cross country. State will separate the real XC runners....
@CoachGlen69

Again the topic of Liberty Bell and how it skews the "real" status of runners in Colorado. When will LB take a hint and change the course or reclassify the event as a road race. LB is not real cross country in a state that should be the pinnacle of cross country.

State will separate the real XC runners....
10/07/2014 10:51:21 PM
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@daileysk I agree and disagree on this. Without a doubt - Pat Amato and Liberty Bell are EXTREMELY different than Norris Penrose. Like a number of people have said, the state meet will sort that all out. However if we want to look at times (admittedly a very iffy proposition in XC anyway), then its important to consider the fact that many of the fast times we see from other states not only come from "joke" courses, but they are also at sea level as well. I don't think Pat Amato for example is a fair comparison to other in-state courses but I think its a very fair comparison to many out of state courses such as the old NXR course or the Desert Twilight meet. It may be the fairest race to be used for qualification for other meets across the country in my mind . . . thoughts?
@daileysk

I agree and disagree on this. Without a doubt - Pat Amato and Liberty Bell are EXTREMELY different than Norris Penrose. Like a number of people have said, the state meet will sort that all out.

However if we want to look at times (admittedly a very iffy proposition in XC anyway), then its important to consider the fact that many of the fast times we see from other states not only come from "joke" courses, but they are also at sea level as well. I don't think Pat Amato for example is a fair comparison to other in-state courses but I think its a very fair comparison to many out of state courses such as the old NXR course or the Desert Twilight meet.

It may be the fairest race to be used for qualification for other meets across the country in my mind . . . thoughts?
10/08/2014 1:18:29 PM
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I will comment. The Liberty Bell course may not be the fastest in the State for every athlete. (I will mention Windjammer, Pat Amato and North Monument Valley as places, that can be and have been at least as fast as Liberty Bell) As mentioned in another thread, many runners run faster at other meets, and later in the year. (I have to wonder about the new Nike Southwest course being even faster than Toka Sticks and how those who ran there will have extremely fast times to compare to our altitude races)there is much more going on at Liberty Bell than a fast course. When we get a great majority of the fastest teams in the state together, big things tend to happen. The atmosphere, energy and expectations are unlike any race in our state before State, at least any that I have been to. North Penrose is the place to really determine where kids stand, it's our State Meet course. It is however, not a championship course. One big hill and a narrow creek crossing does not automatically make it a true cross course.
I will comment. The Liberty Bell course may not be the fastest in the State for every athlete. (I will mention Windjammer, Pat Amato and North Monument Valley as places, that can be and have been at least as fast as Liberty Bell) As mentioned in another thread, many runners run faster at other meets, and later in the year. (I have to wonder about the new Nike Southwest course being even faster than Toka Sticks and how those who ran there will have extremely fast times to compare to our altitude races)there is much more going on at Liberty Bell than a fast course. When we get a great majority of the fastest teams in the state together, big things tend to happen. The atmosphere, energy and expectations are unlike any race in our state before State, at least any that I have been to.

North Penrose is the place to really determine where kids stand, it's our State Meet course. It is however, not a championship course. One big hill and a narrow creek crossing does not automatically make it a true cross course.
10/08/2014 4:59:04 PM
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Just like anywhere else, Colorado has extremely fast courses, extremely slow courses, and everything in between. We have the altitude factor as well. I think the problem with discounting certain races from rankings is a slippery slope. First Liberty Bell gets cut, then Wiggins, then Windjammer, etc. How do you decide where to draw the line? If the field averages a 20 second season best, is that okay? 30 seconds? State will be the true test: head-to-head, on the same course, under the same conditions as the best people in your classification. The current course may not be the best for a state meet, but it's the same course for everyone. I get that everyone wants the "right" people to get in to the "right" race for Nike, but I would guess, just like state track, the top half or more of the field will be the "right" people and the debate will be around the kids who are on the "edge," so to speak. Now I have to go to practice to get my kids ready for Wiggins (which is being advertised as "the fastest 5k in Colorado.")
Just like anywhere else, Colorado has extremely fast courses, extremely slow courses, and everything in between. We have the altitude factor as well. I think the problem with discounting certain races from rankings is a slippery slope. First Liberty Bell gets cut, then Wiggins, then Windjammer, etc. How do you decide where to draw the line? If the field averages a 20 second season best, is that okay? 30 seconds?

State will be the true test: head-to-head, on the same course, under the same conditions as the best people in your classification. The current course may not be the best for a state meet, but it's the same course for everyone. I get that everyone wants the "right" people to get in to the "right" race for Nike, but I would guess, just like state track, the top half or more of the field will be the "right" people and the debate will be around the kids who are on the "edge," so to speak.

Now I have to go to practice to get my kids ready for Wiggins (which is being advertised as "the fastest 5k in Colorado.")
10/09/2014 2:34:32 PM
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@moliver…I agree that some runners do better at other courses than others, and energy levels rise when high caliber teams get together. But at the Liberty Bell meet, you see runners dropping their times down by well over a minute, then the rest of the season they don't even come within a minute of that meet? AND the Liberty Bell is at the beginning of the season to boot. So do all these runners get worse as the season progresses? And I am not sure what it takes to make a "true Cross Country" course, but I highly doubt it's like the Liberty Bell…predominately all downhill on a perfect running surface. At least the State course has two hills (three if you count the big hill that plateau's and then gets even steeper) and two creek crossings. What would you like to add…logs to jump over, boulders to climb, how about a snake pit? Maybe a river to swim up like Arapahoe's?What would make a "championship course" in your eyes? I wish Nike, and other national running championship events, would only use the State Course for each state for qualification. All of the state's best of the best end up there and most importantly... on a level playing field.
@moliver…I agree that some runners do better at other courses than others, and energy levels rise when high caliber teams get together. But at the Liberty Bell meet, you see runners dropping their times down by well over a minute, then the rest of the season they don't even come within a minute of that meet? AND the Liberty Bell is at the beginning of the season to boot. So do all these runners get worse as the season progresses?
And I am not sure what it takes to make a "true Cross Country" course, but I highly doubt it's like the Liberty Bell…predominately all downhill on a perfect running surface. At least the State course has two hills (three if you count the big hill that plateau's and then gets even steeper) and two creek crossings. What would you like to add…logs to jump over, boulders to climb, how about a snake pit? Maybe a river to swim up like Arapahoe's?What would make a "championship course" in your eyes?

I wish Nike, and other national running championship events, would only use the State Course for each state for qualification. All of the state's best of the best end up there and most importantly... on a level playing field.
10/09/2014 3:49:19 PM
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@CoachGlen69 Baiting you just a little here... Since Jordyn Colter didn't finish state in 2012 and finished way back in 2013, and since Bailey Roth finished well back in 2013 at state, both of these individuals should have been ruled out of post-season competition or made to take a place in line behind everyone who finished ahead of them at state?
@CoachGlen69

Baiting you just a little here... Since Jordyn Colter didn't finish state in 2012 and finished way back in 2013, and since Bailey Roth finished well back in 2013 at state, both of these individuals should have been ruled out of post-season competition or made to take a place in line behind everyone who finished ahead of them at state?
10/09/2014 4:25:36 PM
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In my opinion, a championship course should: Be extremely spectator friendly, varying terrain, and multiple loops. It doesn't have to have a water crossing or any other feature in particular. My main point is that there is no such thing as a true high school cross country course. (Golf courses make great cross country courses). I certainly did not mean that our current course is too easy.
In my opinion, a championship course should: Be extremely spectator friendly, varying terrain, and multiple loops. It doesn't have to have a water crossing or any other feature in particular. My main point is that there is no such thing as a true high school cross country course. (Golf courses make great cross country courses). I certainly did not mean that our current course is too easy.
10/09/2014 4:46:23 PM
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@CoachGlen69 Almost all of my athletes who ran at Liberty Bell have set personal records since. I would say that is true of many schools. We could do some analysis to see if that is the case. Liberty Bell is a highly competitive meet, that's why I take my teams there every year. I wouldn't want to go to that of course every week, but I definitely enjoy watching my kids get excited to set big PR's.
@CoachGlen69
Almost all of my athletes who ran at Liberty Bell have set personal records since. I would say that is true of many schools. We could do some analysis to see if that is the case. Liberty Bell is a highly competitive meet, that's why I take my teams there every year. I wouldn't want to go to that of course every week, but I definitely enjoy watching my kids get excited to set big PR's.
10/09/2014 4:54:52 PM
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@CoachVersaw Couldn't agree more.....you have to look at the body of work over the course of the season for the big post season races. If Colter was DQ'd from post season in 2012 she wouldn't have gone on to get 4th place at Foot Locker Nationals!! She was a top 10 runner in the entire country that year despite falling ill at State and not finishing.
@CoachVersaw

Couldn't agree more.....you have to look at the body of work over the course of the season for the big post season races. If Colter was DQ'd from post season in 2012 she wouldn't have gone on to get 4th place at Foot Locker Nationals!! She was a top 10 runner in the entire country that year despite falling ill at State and not finishing.
10/09/2014 5:15:55 PM
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When we last had this this LB discussion two weeks ago, I said that, by season's end, typically my athlete's season bests are not from LB. So as an update, my top five boys have all run faster than LB and five out of my top ten girls have as well. Of the five girls who haven't yet outrun their LB times, they have all come within 10 seconds. So, to say that LB is so ridiculously faster than everything else out there, is just not accurate. When it is run in early September, yes those times seem extremely fast, but as the season progresses, we see that LB is just the beginning of what runners can do.
When we last had this this LB discussion two weeks ago, I said that, by season's end, typically my athlete's season bests are not from LB. So as an update, my top five boys have all run faster than LB and five out of my top ten girls have as well. Of the five girls who haven't yet outrun their LB times, they have all come within 10 seconds.

So, to say that LB is so ridiculously faster than everything else out there, is just not accurate. When it is run in early September, yes those times seem extremely fast, but as the season progresses, we see that LB is just the beginning of what runners can do.
10/09/2014 5:33:49 PM
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@GWCCCoach Rich, That's definitely a point worth making, but there is also a point worth making on the other side. That is, of the current top 50 ranked girls in the state, 33 are from Liberty Bell times. Of the current top 50 ranked boys in the state, 26 are from Liberty Bell times. And a very large percentage of those that are not from Liberty Bell times are from athletes who did not even run at Liberty Bell (Young, Reed, Dalton, Van Calcar, Roberts, Hamer, Butler, Meek, Plantz, etc.).
@GWCCCoach

Rich,

That's definitely a point worth making, but there is also a point worth making on the other side. That is, of the current top 50 ranked girls in the state, 33 are from Liberty Bell times. Of the current top 50 ranked boys in the state, 26 are from Liberty Bell times. And a very large percentage of those that are not from Liberty Bell times are from athletes who did not even run at Liberty Bell (Young, Reed, Dalton, Van Calcar, Roberts, Hamer, Butler, Meek, Plantz, etc.).
10/10/2014 11:57:26 AM
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I think the only way to somewhat level the playing field is maybe just not take times from the State Meet Course, but how about times from each Regional Meet? That way if a runner is injured or ill, they have two meets within a few weeks to run in and qualify? This way there are two meets everyone has to run in and on the same course. Or take a runners best season time with the exception of Liberty Bell, Amato and Wiggins? I agree it is difficult to even things out...heck with it, have the runners just run 12.5 laps around a track. Just kidding!
I think the only way to somewhat level the playing field is maybe just not take times from the State Meet Course, but how about times from each Regional Meet? That way if a runner is injured or ill, they have two meets within a few weeks to run in and qualify? This way there are two meets everyone has to run in and on the same course.
Or take a runners best season time with the exception of Liberty Bell, Amato and Wiggins? I agree it is difficult to even things out...heck with it, have the runners just run 12.5 laps around a track. Just kidding!

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